From the media

The Protector of Citizens was a guest on the show "New Morning" on Pink Television.

In the past few days, the public was horrified by the story about the abuse of an old woman in a home for the elderly in Voždovac. How common is violence against the elderly in Serbia and how to stop it? That is one of the questions for the Protector of Citizens Zoran Pašalić. Good morning! Did you submit a report to the RS National Assembly by March 15?

- That was our obligation and by March 15 we submitted a report to the National Assembly on the results for the previous year.

We will get back to that regular report, but now let's talk about the abuse of the old woman in the home for the elderly in Voždovac. Your office responded. In what way and what is happening now?

- On March 16, we sent a letter to the Ministry of Labour stating that we must react in regard to that case. And they reacted really quickly, so the license of that home was suspended. However, that opened one big topic that we are dealing with and we will especially deal with it in the next period. I always emphasize that a society, its quality, is measured in relation to those who are under special protection, and that is children and the elderly.

And the ill, of course.

- Yes, but this time I put the emphasis on the elderly.

In the regular report, the one mentioned before, you dedicated a significant part to the care for the elderly.

- Yes, we did. This is one of our primary activities, principally focusing on the position of the elderly in homes, the inspection of all homes, both public and privately owned. Also, contact with the owners of privately owned homes for the elderly in order to see everything that is needed to prevent the situation that we have from ever happening again. You gave an example.

How many complaints have you had when it comes to homes? On the other hand, we had various types of media captions. We will not state that every one of them is correct, namely those mentioning homes that resemble houses of fear, unregistered homes, unlicensed homes… As far as we understand, there are about 60 to 80 illegal homes?

- That's right.

Let's talk about what was said first. How common is violence against the elderly in general?

- It is a very common problem, because they are old, and it does not have to be just physical violence, they are also exposed to psychological violence. What is less visible, for example, is the so-called economic violence, which means that their income is taken by others, whether by relatives or under one of the contracts. They are often deprived of their legal capacity, so someone else disposes of their property, and that is also the subject of our interest. In the next period, we will inspect all homes, regardless of whether they are state homes or privately owned homes, because we have a mandate for that according to the Law on the Protector of Citizens, primarily as a preventive measure. On the other hand, which is just as important, we will speak to the Ministry of Labour, which is responsible for this issue. And the most important thing, and that is, we will talk directly with the users of the services of those homes, that is, with the elderly, in order to find out first hand what their position is and what can be done to improve that position.

What are the most common complaints?

- They mostly refer to accommodation and the attitude of employees towards them in different ways. From some fundamental things, such as food, accommodation, to...

Lack of medical care, right?

- To that too, but primarily to the attitude towards them. That is the key because you must always take one fact into account. A person in their life can choose whether they will be married, whether they will have one or more children, what their career will be like and which direction it will take. But one day we will all be old people and we need to think about that and go in the direction of improving the relationship with the elderly, our relatives, our mothers, fathers,and we should do this to the maximum degree possible. In that way, we will show and we do show that we are a society that knows how to solve this problem.

And how will you solve the problem of illegal old people's homes? As far as we understand, there are 60 to 80 of them, and the capacity is very large, that is some 10,000 beds. Is that true?

- Yes.

How does someone dare to keep an illegal home?

- There are 250 nursing homes in the Republic of Serbia, 160 of them in Belgrade, and those are the homes that are legal, that meet the conditions necessary for the home to function.

These are the homes you will actually go to inspect?

-That's right. As for illegal homes - it is known whose responsibility that is, but will we also deal with it, and that is why I say that we practically have three ways of action. One is aimed at the relevant ministry, which should regulate the existence of these illegal homes. There are different ways in the region to regulate the attitude towards the elderly who are not taken of by someone from the family or someone who cares for them on some basis. For instance, there is the example of Croatia where they had the so-called “family homes” and this proved to be very bad. These are present, for example, in smaller communities where someone who has a bigger house, then they take in several elderly people and take care of them. But it turned out to be bad because they were out of the realm of inspections. I'm not making a true comparison now, but... inspection, inspection, inspection, that's what we're going to do.

What are the main complaints besides these? Not only in the elderly population, but also in other categories that require special attention and care?

- If you refer to special attention and care, there are children with special needs who require it. But if you ask me, most of the complaints are related to property and legal issues - the cadastre and the legalization of buildings. This is also what we will focus on in our coming activities.

Many of your, let's say, former colleagues, now solicitors, lawyers and people who deal with these issues, told me about the problems with the cadastre, that they could not get the document, decision and what is needed to resolve the property-legal status. What are the most common problems and how can you solve them now as a protector of citizens?

- The first and basic thing when we approach such a problem is that in an institution, I will explain it colloquially, we have constant contact with someone who coordinates the work of the institution and who has direct contact with someone who coordinates the same type of work in our institution. It is like a liaison person, which works well when dealing with the Ministry of Internal Affairs, where there is a person who, when a problem arises, we can contact and get information from as soon as possible. So, we don't have to wait for our information to get to them first, and then for it to be returned to us, so as to avoid wasting a lot of time and to react immediately. Because, what the citizens complain about the most is that the process lasts too long, it is exhausting, and not to mention the problems of legalization which are the problem of local self-governments.

Yes, it is the silence of the administration or some slowness of the administration that is the problem. How to solve it, there are countless examples, not just relating the cadastre? It's just unbelievable. People say that now it's a little different with this e-government, but in some spheres it doesn't change much.

- E-government is good, but there is always a person behind every e-government platform who needs to take certain actions in order to get the job done.

I’m getting a message..., for example, to whom should we complain about an illegal home for the elderly?

- To us.

I don't think people know exactly what you do, they don't know all the areas that you cover. Where can they get the information?

- They can come to 16 Deligradska, but also there are phone numbers, emails, etc. Our address is 16 Deligradska, where they will certainly be met by someone who processes the data, and probably by me too, if I am available.

And then you carry out the inspection based on the formal complaint? You come to inspect?

- No, we address the competent ministry when it comes to illegal homes.

Specifically, in this case it is the Ministry of Labour?

- That's right. And we can act, initiate as we initiated this case on March 16, immediately after getting information from the media.

Of course. It is amazing how much it can go, let's say, unnoticed if someone does not have living children, or if they are alone and old.

- This is not only a problem of Serbia. That is the problem of the whole of Europe. We are an old population, Europe is old and the old population is prevalent. Then there is migration due to the search for a better, more adequate jobs, which is not only a syndrome of Serbia, but of absolutely all countries in Europe. This is a burning issue. And I repeat, caring for the elderly shows the humanity of a society.

Absolutely. It is best that we end up like that kind of society. Thank you very much.

- Thank you!

I have one more question. Some old people say: if we don't pay for electricity or something, 30% of a pension is taken for the debt.

- It's probably the collection agent’s business. I guess that is what the viewer had an objection to.

Yes, maybe that is a too large amount for pensions of 25,000 dinars, as the gentleman says.

- Of course. Again, we are the ones to address to. They should contact us. I am not saying that we can solve every problem, but we can solve a large number of problems.

Thank you very much for being our guest! See you again soon.

The Protector of Citizens was a guest in the morning program of the Serbian Radio and Television (RTS).

The Protector of Citizens has already submitted the regular annual report on his work to the National Assembly. What did he mark as a job well done and what did he not finish and why, what proposals did he give to improve the position of citizens when dealing with the state administration? Zoran Pašalić, the Protector of Citizens, is our guest. Good morning and welcome.

- Good morning. Thank you for inviting me.

How many grievances have you had lately?

- In the reporting period, there were 16,000 complaints and the most important thing is that 83% of them were resolved.

That is a high percentage.

- I think that is a very high percentage compared to the previous period, but also in relation to some similar institutions.

Citizens most often complained to you about social and economic problems. However, in this period one big problem in our society came to light which hasn’t been talked about much, and is increasingly becoming more evident, namely, violence against the elderly. Am I right?

- You are right, and it is not only violence... When violence occurs, it is really the most radical problem that can happen to the elderly. Caring for the elderly is now the focus of the Protector of Citizens. Citizens know what happened in the last few days. You know that we were the first to react to the case of violence against an old woman in one of the nursing homes, when the competent Ministry reacted very quickly, on our initiative, and inspected that nursing home.

And what is the epilogue? Have they lost their license?

- They haven’t lost their license permanently, their license has been suspended, to say it colloquially, for a while. What is most important for the Protector of Citizens in the next period is the care for the elderly on three levels. The first one relates to their status, the second relates to the status of nursing homes regardless of who owns them and, finally, the third one relates to the work of the competent ministry. The most important thing is that the elderly must be adequately cared for. We, and not only we, that is, not only Serbia, but Europe as well, is practically the area where the largest number of elderly people are. We have an old population.

Do Europeans face this problem as well?

- They absolutely have the same problems. Then you have the migration of young people who are leaving and, in that way, a terrible discrepancy is created, where you no longer have those close relatives who would have to take care of the elderly in some way, so they are left to these old people's homes, regardless of whether, as I said, they are privately owned or state-owned. Do you know how many old people's homes there are in the Republic of Serbia?

I can't even guess.

- There are 250 legal old people’s homes, 160 of them in Belgrade, and according to our records, the number of illegal homes ranges between 60 and 80. The capacities of these homes are 10,000 people.

And where is violence against the elderly most often recorded? Is it in old people’s homes or in the family?

- It is not in these homes. There was this case in Leskovac, where a 60-year-old son killed his 86-year-old father and then committed suicide. We mustn’t just focus on violence, we should talk about the bad treatment in old people's homes. When someone is placed in a home for the elderly, we should not focus on violence, we should talk about adequate treatment. For that reason, in the next period, we will inspect the homes for the elderly, of course, within our competencies, and we actually have those competencies. I can't say we will reach all the homes in a short period of time, but in a very short period of time we will conduct inspections of the homes for the elderly.

Let me ask you...

- Excuse me, let me just finish. Since this is a two-way street, I plan to have a meeting with the owners of private old people’s homes next week or at the beginning of the following week, to hear their problems too, because they will certainly present their problems. Also, when visiting these nursing homes, we will first talk to users directly to see what problem they have, what their treatment is there and what can be improved.

Psychological violence is the most difficult to prove. How do you prove what old people complain about?

- In conversation. First of all, we are not the ones who prove...

Is it enough?

- It is important for us to get information in direct contact with the elderly and then, based on that, to see that actions we are going to take, and those actions range from improving conditions, and certainly to what you mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, to suspensions of licences of such homes, if needed.

At the beginning of our conversation, you mentioned a very high percentage of cases resolved. Which solutions are you extremely satisfied with?

- I can say that I am pleased with the solutions to the following issue, which is very important and to which we will also pay special attention in the coming period, namely, property and social problems related to legalization, cadastre work, treatment of property of citizens of the Republic of Serbia in general. They are...

Is that the moment when institutions fail and do not do their job? Is it...

- This is one way of solving them, when the Protector of Citizens reacts to citizens' reports or information from the media, but we want to act more and more preventively, to get information, to find out where the problem is, so as not to wait for the problem to escalate or to reach the point, as you said in the case of old people's homes, of some really tragic situations, like the case of an older woman who left the home and passed away two days later. These are things that must not happen.

In your opinion, are the citizens sufficiently informed about your actions? Does everyone know that there is a Protector of Citizens in our country?

- I don't think so. I really made an effort these few years and that is why I am a guest on your show so that the citizens know who to turn to, and I invite...

But the number of complaints is significantly higher than in previous years?

- Yes, but I think that citizens should be better informed. I call on all citizens who are dissatisfied with their treatment in nursing homes, regardless, I say again, of the fact in whose ownership they are, I call on them to contact us. We often forget that one day we will all be in that situation…

Who should they address?

-…that is, we will all get old and be exposed to the possibility of someone else taking care of us and that must always be in our focus. I must say that the value of a state is measured by caring for those who are powerless or who seek someone else's help. These are primarily children and the elderly.

Sensitive categories of citizens...

- They can contact us by e-mail, phone or come if they are able or want to come to Deligradska 16, where I or one of the employees working at the reception will meet them and then discuss the problem. And if everything is as it should be, that is, if it is within the limits of our powers in the first place, we will try and solve it.

Thank you very much for all the information.

- Thank you for the invitation.

We hope that you will have as little work as possible or at least...

- The goal is not to have as little work as possible, but to solve as many problems as possible.

That's right, just like you said. Thank you again.

The Protector of Citizens Zoran Pasalic was a guest on the show "Oko magazin" on the Radio-Television of Serbia.

Host: Good evening, dear viewers, this is "Oko magazin". On the International Mother Language Day, it is usually stated that languages are disappearing and that by the end of this century, out of a total of about 6,000 spoken languages on the planet, half will disappear. In the Balkans, we have an opposite situation - since the end of the last century, languages have not disappeared but are emerging. Can it really be said like that? What is the position of science on languages and what does the law say, and why did the Serbian language textbook for the eighth grade bother the representatives of some national minorities? In the first part of the show, we will talk about all this with Zoran Pasalic, the Protector of Citizens. Good evening, welcome. And Professor Aleksandar Milanovic from the Faculty of Philology, Vice President of the Serbian Language Society. Welcome. In the announcement, I asked, among other things, why this textbook bothered some people, so let me immediately ask you about that, Mr. Pasalic, since you issued a statement, an opinion, about twenty days ago...

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: We sent an opinion to the Ministry of Education.

Host: Yes. So, it is about BIGZ's textbook for the eighth grade, and the wording on the division of languages is what’s disputable. So, what is disputable about it?

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: The Protector of Citizens protects the rights of all citizens on the territory of the Republic of Serbia and all persons who are on the territory of the Republic of Serbia. Both the old and the new Law on the Protector of Citizens highlight special groups that have special protection – children, people with disabilities and members of national minorities. So, the textbook as a whole is not disputable, it’s the definition of the difference between South Slavic languages that’s disputable, which says in the Serbian language textbook for the eighth grade that Croats, Bosniaks and Montenegrins use Serbian language but call it Croatian, Bosniak, that is Bosnian, sorry, that's a big mistake – so Bosnian and Montenegrin language. This is completely contrary to the existing law, the Constitution and the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, which we ratified back in 2005.

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: It is not good when politics interferes with science, it is not good when science interferes with politics. I understand the Protector of Citizens, he speaks from his political position and defends his political position, that is, the option he represents. The fact is that there are laws that he refers to, but I am afraid that in his entire presentation, he referred only to politics and not once to science. That can be problematic, and throughout the history of Serbs, it has been problematic, and I apologize to the viewers, but I need to take a minute here to tell an anecdote, which is very important for understanding today's case. It also concerns textbooks. It is about the Principality of Serbia, where the Ministry of Education at the time banned the printing of textbooks in Vuk's Cyrillic alphabet, but the Society of Serbian Literature, the forerunner of the Academy of Sciences, insisted that it should not be decided by the ministry, but by the de facto Academy of Sciences. It seems to me that the analogy here is almost complete, and I'm not sure that people outside the field of Serbistics should judge this. So, in this particular sentence, and my esteemed colleague said that they de facto exist, that they de facto exist as political...

Host: But he referred to the Charter recognized by our country.

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: ... as political languages and I know that in 2005 the Republic of Serbia recognized that, even with the wording Bosnian language, which is more than scandalous because it cannot be the language of Bosnia but only the language of Bosniaks, which means it should Bosniak language according to Serbian language rules, and exclusively Bosniak language, but that is the position of politics. It must be taken into account that there is also the position of science.

Host: What should be done to find the right solution, to respect the Constitution and the law without neglecting science and these theses that the professor is talking about?

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: There is not a grain of politics in what I said. Maybe that grain of politics existed when the state of Serbia passed the laws it passed. While the law is as it is, it must be fully respected. The Constitution of the Republic of Serbia guarantees the acquired rights to national minorities, it even says, in its two articles, 18 and 20, that the acquired rights of national minorities cannot be reduced. There is no politics there, we have a legal framework we must adhere to, otherwise we work against those regulations that the state of Serbia passed at the time – in 2002 the Law on the Rights of National Minorities, in 2005 the ratification of the Charter, and in 2006 the Constitution.

Host: But when you say it like that, the professor's thesis doesn’t seem right, and he speaks on the basis of science, he studied and received his doctorate on that, and that is actually a science that is studied at the Faculty of Philology in Belgrade.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: I have a lot of respect for science...

Host: And now, professor, when I...

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: No, I have to finish, excuse me.

Host: Please.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: I respect science very much, but it seems that no one has read the opinion we sent to the Ministry of Education. Because there it says: without going into the position of the science of linguistics, we only talk about what is stated in the laws, i.e., the Constitution, i.e., in the Charter that we ratified, thereby determining which languages will be special, and I must say, you have languages in official use in the Republic of Serbia, in which not only teaching in the sense of textbooks in those languages takes place, but also all classes in primary and secondary schools are on those languages. Any deviation from that is a violation of the law, the Constitution and the Charter that we passed in 2002, 2005 and 2006.

Host: You said that, thank you. Professor Milanovic, what do you say? Does your science, your department, the Serbian Language Society and the Committee for Standardization, do they act against the Constitution and the law if it is as Mr. Pasalic says?

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: First of all, I must say that I fully empathize with the Protector of Citizens and I say that without any irony. So, he defends his position and speaks from a position opposite to mine, but I fully understand what the gentleman is trying to say. There is, however, something else.

Host: What?

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: A question for the viewers – how does the Montenegrin language differ from the Serbian language? It’s one thing what is written in the law, but there is reality outside the law. Truth can also be outside the law. Give me one distinctive difference between the Montenegrin standard language and the Serbian standard language, and not those caricatures “šj” and “žj”, which even the Montenegrins gave up. Therefore, I understand what is written in the law, but how that law was passed and why is another question...

Host: Excuse me, but where have you been when that Charter was being adopted? Not you specifically, but I mean where was science then? For example, today we hear Professor Brboric, who says that the languages of national minorities are in a better position in Serbia than the Serbian language, as we hear it today, and the Charter has been in force for almost two decades.

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: Unfortunately, no one in this country asks science anything. We still respect the law from 1991, mind you, from 1991... The Protector of Citizens would probably count better than me how many countries have we changed in the meantime and how many language situations there have been, and we work according to the law from the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. That is the nonsense from which all these things we are talking about today arise.

Host: And now we have, let’s say, a division, this is actually the page from the textbook because of which the Protector of Citizens suggested that the textbook should be withdrawn in the next school year.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: That is right.

Host: That deadline is still open, and we are waiting for the decision of the ministry. So, let us see... it is stated that Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, i.e., Bosniak and Montenegrin languages all have the same dialectal basis, that speakers understand each other easily. Now I ask you, professor, help us understand, this is the formulation also used in other textbooks, so should it be written differently?

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: Let us suppose that the textbook was written by competent Serbistics experts, I assume that the reviewers were also competent Serbistics experts, and I also assume that the textbook passed the regular procedures in the competent and relevant institutions. I am not sure, with due respect, that the Protector of Citizens is a relevant institution to judge linguistic problems.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: Sorry to interrupt...

Host: Now that is exactly what I want to ask you. One of the authors of this textbook, I talked to him, said that the same wording was used in four other textbooks from different publishers, also for the eighth grade, and that they refer to the same basis, and that is what the Committee for Standardization of Serbian language said, and that for them, that is the "Holy Scripture" or the Constitution, whatever you call it, but they stick to it. And now, when you recommended this one textbook to be withdrawn, did you react to a complaint or will all textbooks that contain the same definition now have to be revised?

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: Let us not spread the topic further unnecessarily. So, it is not our job, nor is it in the description of our job to review all textbooks, so to speak conditionally. We had a complaint that had a legal basis, not to repeat for the third time...

Host: Yes, yes, you said that. So, you don't read everything, you only act on complaints?

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: If something is against the law, there is no place for it. I will give you another example that will be clear to everyone. The same community, the national community of Bosniaks in the Republic of Serbia, sent us a protest against the wording in the travel documents stating that they have Serbian citizenship. As long as the law states that the citizens of the Republic of Serbia have the citizenship of the Republic of Serbia, and not Serbian citizenship, we must adhere to it, no matter how much someone dislikes it, how much someone has a personal opinion, how much science thinks it is wrong. If it says in the law, I repeated that who knows how many times...

Host: We understood.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: ...we must abide by that law.

Host: There is talk of an initiative to give the Serbian language the status of a supra-subject in schools. Why do we need that?

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: Supra-subject. I will answer, just let me add something. One of the most scandalous decisions of our authorities was the abolition of the term "Serbian citizenship". One of the most scandalous, because that decision not only abolishes the term "Serbian citizenship" but it also abolishes the word Serbian in the Serbian language. Because, what is citizenship of the Republic of Serbia if not Serbian citizenship? Please, in the Republic of Croatia they say “Croatian citizenship”.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: Not only in Croatia.

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: I gave a very indicative example. So, why and who abolished the legal term Serbian citizenship, who finds that disputable, who finds the adjective "Serbian", which means that something belongs to the Republic of Serbia, disputable? It often doesn't even say, and this is where I will end this part of the answer, citizenship of the Republic of Serbia, but very often it only says citizenship of Serbia, which is not only a deformation in thinking, but also a deformation in language.

Host: Okay, and what about the supra-subject status?

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: And as for the supra-subject status, we are trying to transfer some good experiences from Europe to Serbia. Serbia is the country with probably the smallest number of mother language classes in Europe, if not the smallest, then among the smallest. Our close colleagues, and I will take our close neighbors as an example again – Croats, have an incomparably higher number of Croatian language classes in their educational system than us. So, we want the supra-subject status just like the Russian language has in Russia. We consider it very important, first of all, symbolically, and secondly, practically, in order to raise the status of Serbian language and literature as a subject to a dignified position, i.e., to make it the same as similar subjects in other European countries.

Host: Okay. Mr. Pasalic, is there a legal basis for such an initiative? Isn't that supposed to be controversial, how does that go?

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: I am absolutely not familiar with that, when I find out, I will tell you if there is a legal basis. I repeat, this is the essence – the Protector of Citizens does not deal with this type of issue, nor with linguistic issues, but deals with the protection of citizens of the Republic of Serbia, based on those determinants determined by law, Constitution and international conventions, which are now an integral part of our law. Please let me finish.

Host: Okay, I will allow it.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: In case there is a deviation from that, now everyone has the opportunity to interpret the legal regulation, and we know who only should have the right to interpret it, but the essence here is that this regulation is unnecessary to interpret because there is this provision in the Charter saying that the Republic of Serbia, that is, the state of Serbia, recognized Bosnian and Croatian, not Montenegrin for now, as special languages, and as such, they must be respected and the textbook cannot define the language which they call Croatian or Bosnian as Serbian.

Host: Mr. Milanovic, how would you then adjust this wording so that no one is offended, would you adjust it to the law, having in mind everything that the Protector of Citizens said?

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: Science cannot adapt to laws of any kind. If Dositej Obradovic, Vuk Karadzic, Djuro Danicic had adapted to the laws, there would be no Serbian language or Serbian culture today. So, we simply cannot think about that phenomenon at all. The standard language that the Serbs use is the one defined by Vuk, ethnogenetically completely in, how should I say, the Serbian ethnos and the Serbian culture and Serbian tradition, which was standardized in the 19th century. The fact is that Croatian, Bosniak and Montenegrin languages differ so little from that language standard that in no way can we speak of them as special languages scientifically. The fact is, therefore, that they all have Serbian origin, and then all that...

Host: And the law?

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: And the law should be regulated by lawyers.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: I agree with the professor that when passing a new law, experts must be consulted...

Host: You mean you they should have been consulted before...

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: Experts from more than one field must be consulted...

Host: And what do we do now?

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: ...it is necessary to state more of those scientific disciplines to which the law refers. But the law is as it is. What I have to say is, and I am sorry, professor, that the language is officially called Bosnian, and that's how it is in our laws.

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: That again. In science it is called Bosniak.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: Okay, but legally it is defined as Bosnian...

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: I speak the language of science, sorry, I speak the language of science.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: I have made that mistake, so to say, several times. You said that it changes... But there is the Constitution which says that the rights, acquired rights of national minorities, cannot be reduced.

Host: You said that. But is there anything that can be done now?

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: I have to repeat that in order for people to understand what it is about.

Host: Of course, you repeated that many times, but we also hear the professor, so now I'm trying to find a compromise between law and science.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: There is no compromise, no compromise... There is a compromise in the sense that when someone thinks that a regulation is not adequate for any reason, to say so mildly, then they can start rearranging it.

Host: When you say it like that, it seems that we will have the same problem every year.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: No, it is impossible to have the same problem because you have to define the problem, consult the experts...

Host: Then the professor has to change his position, that is, the science...

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: Please. So, you have a situation where you notice a problem in the legal solution, you consult the experts, you approach the arrangement if there is space...

Host: And here?

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: I will not talk about that at all, I quoted the Constitution, we ratified the European Charter, we took over something from it, we did not have to take over everything...

Host: I understand, you said that, thank you.

Zoran Pasalic, Protector of Citizens: ... and we defined them as special languages. I have to keep repeating.

Aleksandar Milanovic, Professor at the Faculty of Philology: Apparently we haven't had the conditions for that since '91, I have no other comment. So, for 30 years, we have not had the conditions to change the law of a non-existent state. I think that all viewers can see that.

Host: Let us end the conversation with at least some hope that we will welcome the next Mother Tongue Day next year with a different conversation. Thank you for all these clarifications.

The Protector of Citizens was guest at Beogradska hronika program on Radio Television of Serbia.

There is a wide range of areas where one might need Ombudsman’s assistance. This institution has existed in Serbia for years. It’s there to legally assist the citizens, clarify, and indicate the shortcomings of the institutions’ work. Sometimes more successfully, sometimes less. What have the citizens mostly complained about in the two years of the pandemic, what cases were successful, and what were the other ones, the guest of Beogradska hronika will tell us, the Ombudsman, Zoran Pašalić. Good evening. The pandemic has been going on for two years, we have talked prior to the program, and you said that there were complaints by the citizens that they wait for too long for surgeries, to inappropriate doctors’ actions. How much are you able to respond to all those requests amid pandemic?

- It’s proven that the number of approaches during the state of emergency has risen by 60 percent and that the number of approaches to the Protector of Citizens rose significantly as regards the pre pandemic conditions. It is much higher, so the Institution had to introduce different working hours, different relation, reception, and contact with the citizens in order to solve many of the emerging problems.

What have the citizens complained about? If you say by 60 percent up, it’s really significant.

- If I were to enlist now everything that they complained about, we would need two of these programs. Here, we have three predominant points. The first one is what you’ve just said – treatment conditions, while the second and the third one mainly refer to property-legal protection. The second very big problem is addressing the Pension fund, i.e. waiting too long for pensions. The third one refers to some property-economic conditions such as cadaster, legalizations. The pandemic has significantly slowed regular activities down and certainly the citizens eventually approach us when they are dissatisfied with how quickly their problems are being resolved.

When it comes to the problems they had with the doctors in the hospitals, to what extent can you assist them now amid pandemic?

- We can help a lot.

How?

- In many ways. Chiefly, we, regarding specific cases, firstly contact the ones that manage those healthcare institutions, and it is usually at that point that we solve the problems, and in the cases when it is impossible, we contact higher instances that handle these sort of issues.

What is the biggest problem when it comes to exercising the right to pension? How is pandemic an excuse?

- Long waiting time, which brings citizens entitled to pension in a very bad situation, because such a vacuum between the cessation of employment and receiving first pension really brings them in a difficult situation. Then, they contact us, and we in our contacts with Pension fund solve it.

Are there any institutions that cooperate less with you, that are less responsive to your recommendations?

- I have emphasized several times and that is what I said at the beginning of my term of office, just like now, regardless of the intensity of the epidemic – that’s the contact with the citizens, including outside Belgrade. You’re Beogradska hronika, and I don’t know how it’s related to you, but to us the primary thing when visiting local self-governments, is to solve problems, a good deal of problems springs from local self-government.

When it comes to the Ministries, are there the ones that more gladly provide you with information, act on your orders and the ones that are aloof?

- It’s not strictly related to their willingness or lack of it. It depends on different circumstances of a case. How a Ministry, or generally an institution of the executive, understands our approach, so, how, according to them, this problem is hard, or easy.

You don’t have an option of forced implementation of your recommendation, what do you do in those situations?

- We don’t have a possibility to force, we are practically an independent, but the most significant independent institution, that even has constitutional treatment, which doesn’t have a possibility to force, not even in the sense of initiating some procedures or filing reports for some failures to act. It’s either an absolute and obstinate constant pressure on the institutions that for any reason ignore acting upon our recommendation, or what we have fought for and what the new Law provided us with, it wasn’t the obligation then, but now it is – to publish the names of the institutions that fail to act upon our recommendations, and that is a sort of pressure.

Do you go to the media, are they receptive if you ask them to publish names, something like that?

- Depends on them. A good deal of information about some problems of our citizens, we obtain from the media, but what I have always highlighted that, irrespective of anyone’s viewpoint and taking offence – we first check whether the information is accurate. In a good deal of cases, we cannot prove that it happened exactly like that.

I didn't mean that. I thought if you have a problem with an institution, they are not approachable, do you call the media and say it is important to us that this ...

- I know what you are thinking of. We always issue...you see, we had 4700 statements in last year and that proves the relation.

You have compiled a Draft Law amending the Law on Public Order and Peace where violence, threats and offences on social network would be punished as misdemeanor offences. What’s this got to do with journalists and whether and when will this come to work in order to make life easier for all of us?

- It primarily has to do with journalists. Because, you have a great number of what is colloquially called in the world of journalists “an attack”. However, an attack is a much severe qualification and falls under the domain not of misdemeanors but criminal acts. That is, constant insults via social networks. Journalists aren’t the only ones that we wish to protect, the journalists are the primary ones and then the sanction would have a different meaning, it would be stiffer i.e. it would be considered a qualification of that sort of misdemeanors. To put it simply to citizens, you have a situation when somebody insults you on the street – it is absolutely punishable. It’s disturbing public peace and order, not to go in details there, by arguing, quarrelling, heavily insulting, and on the other hand you have constant insults via social networks which, not only you can consider a public place, but as a public space available to everyone.What was indicative, besides the reports filed to us by our citizens regarding that sort of insults, was our constant communication with social networks for doing our job, and then you come to a situation that somebody hidden behind a keyboard, computer or screen is capable to heavily insult certain citizens, groups of citizens, ethnical groups on any grounds – gender, national or religious grounds, and to go absolutely unpunished. 

And it may leave huge consequences in everyday life.

- If the same thing happened to you on the street, it would be punishable then.

Whether and when will the amendments to the Law be adopted?

- It’s on us to table it, then we all know the procedure.

Do you have a response?

- No I don’t have a response but it is very important for us to be understood in the right way, primarily regarding the quantity in which such a procedure will mitigate what is happening daily.

So, you have no response yet, we’re waiting for it. That’s some form of pressure that you’ve talked about.

- We’re waiting as well. It is how it is.

Thank you for being guest at Beogradska hronika.